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The latest trends and thinking in sustainable business from Mike Barry

About Mike Barry

Mike is a change agent, committed to helping business big and small, new and established to prepare for and succeed in the great sustainability disruption that will wash through the economy in the 2020s. He’s worked with organizations such as Unilever, SAP, Grosvenor, GSK, Nestle, Reiss, Nomad Foods, the Climate Pledge, the Environment Agency, Royal Society of Chemistry, British Retail Consortium, Food and Drink Federation, Rentokil, Skipton Building Society, Bord Bia and Climate Action.

Mike was until 2019 Director of Sustainable Business at Marks & Spencer, spearheading its ground-breaking Plan A (because there is no Plan B for the one planet we have) sustainability programme. He co-chaired the Consumer Goods Forum’s sustainability work bringing the world’s largest retailers and fast moving consumer goods brands together to work on issues such as deforestation, plastics and forced labour. He is a Senior Associate at the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership and a Trustee at Blueprint for Better Business.

About this Episode

This is a conversation full of fascinating details, insight and observations that present the listener with invaluable context on what’s required if we are to avoid a climate catastrophe, achieve the UN Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and ensure we don’t leave large segments of society behind.

We hear how, ultimately, no matter how good the policymaking, nor how innovative the new technology, we won’t achieve success if we don’t entice the world’s citizens to change their behaviour — with sustainability front and centre — and ensure mass global engagement.

From traditional beef burgers, to plant-based burgers and even laboratory-grown meat; from the Race to Net Zero to the invaluable role of efficient cities in tackling the SDGs — you will thoroughly enjoy this episode and gain much useful information in the process.

Episode Transcript

Alberto Lidji: So, I guess we could start by finding out a little bit about, what's been transpiring over the last two and a half years. It seems an eternity ago. Mike, welcome onto the show.

Mike Barry: Alberto, thank you for inviting me back. And I remember that first conversation we had back in M&S towers and I was reflecting this morning, before I prepared for this, two and a half years, how much has happened politically, socially pandemics, sustainable business. We're going to have a whale of the next 20, 30 minutes on unpicking it all.

Alberto Lidji: Well, Mike, I mean, 2019 on paper doesn't seem that long ago. In reality, it is a lifetime ago. So much has changed. Give us a few trends of what's been happening over the last 2.5 years.

Mike Barry: Oh goodness, Alberto. How much has changed. And let me just pick out two or three trends very, very quickly. I mean, the first, the shift from the old world, corporate responsibility, creeping incrementalism, just getting a little less bad each year, 2% less energy, 3% less plastic to this radical disruption, business models.

We've seen it power the shift from coal to renewables taking off. In mobility, the point where Tesla is now worth more than all the other car companies on the planet put together. A world where activist shareholders are giving the oil companies the kick up the backside they need. Not just morally, but in terms of the risk of losing even more money as the world rapidly decarbonises, it's not enough just to have a CSR program, you need to put this at the heart of the transformation of your business model.

The second thing I've seen is all about the pandemic, there's been a real stress test for is society really interested in these issues? Yes, they are. I've reviewed 170 different citizens surveys from around the world over the last six months seeing if people are still intact in social, environmental issues despite having to survive the greatest human challenge since probably World War II. Yes, they are.

In virtually every marketplace around the world, even after the pandemic, at least 70% of people are somewhat or very concerned about the climate crisis and want business and government to act on it. And the third thing I'm seeing is the willingness of business to partner for change. This willingness to step forward and say, look, Tescos, Walmarts,huge competitors, Coke and Pepsi are; Nestle and Unilever are.

We can't decarbonise on our own, we need to share the journey forward. Lots of my business now is working with people at the British Retail Consortium, the Food and Drink Federation, the Climate Pledge to bring businesses together, huge competitors, to collaborate as well. So all around me, I see positive trends. Is it fast enough? No, it's not.

Because my final observation is what we've seen last two years is the evidence of climate collapse, of diversity collapse, of systems collapse has just grown exponentially and we're sleepwalking into a crisis unless accelerate the pace of change, politically and economically as well. So a lot for us to get our teeth into, Alberto.

Alberto Lidji: Yes, so how do we accelerate the pace of change politically, economically? How do we get people to overcome any skepticism that they have? And I imagine the degree of skepticism that you saw two and a half years ago is was probably not the same that you're seeing today.

Mike Barry: Yes, and there's always a bell-shaped curve of acceptance. Whether people frame it as citizens, as employees, as, business leaders, as politicians, they'll always be the nay sayers that for whatever political reason, ideological reason just don't want to believe. But they're ever smaller in number. They're fighting and thrashing around to cling on to the old past, of course they would but they're dying around us.

There's a new breed of leaders coming through, particularly from a younger generation saying it's not enough to be a little less bad. We need to be dynamically different. I've talked about these 170 surveys I looked at. Interestingly concerned about social environmental breakdown spreads across all generations.

But the willingness to do something about it is predominantly in this younger generation under 40. And they're willing to invest differently, work for different businesses, drive, different forms of consumption. It is all about action. And that's what the young generation want. My generation are sitting around and saying something needs to be done but by somebody else. So change is happening across all individuals across society.

Alberto Lidji: One of the interesting things Paul Polman said when he was on The Do One Better Podcast earlier this year, he said regarding youth, he says, you know, it's not just a question of giving youth a seat at the table. We should just give them the table!

Mike Barry: Well, and that's a very personal reflection. I mean, when I came out of M&S a couple of years ago, lost people sort of offered the gray haired old fellow more Chief Sustainability Officer roles. You know I've been around a while, just, you know, safe appointment and make it Mike. And I thought about it long and hard and then decided not to. In effect I've committed professional euthanasia.

I need to step away from C-suite. That's sort of proverbial glass fronted office on the top floor and say, somebody else sit there ...10, 15, 20 years younger than me. Mike will always be there as a mentor, coach, a guide, a supporter to help you reach your potential. But we need a new generation of leaders coming through, not old white, gray head fellows like me. We need to move to one side quickly

Alberto Lidji: While speaking of the next generation, are you finding this reflected in business schools?

Mike Barry: Not yet. So again, you know, I write a lot on social media and I did a piece... must be four, six weeks ago now, reflecting on are business skills keeping up with the needs of business for transformational leaders on sustainability? No they're not.

I can talk about Cambridge Institute for Sustainable Leadership very positively. I can talk about what London Business School are doing. But they're tiny number, we need to mainstream MBAs, not into specialist courses about sustainability but into core business practice. Because if you're working in the boardroom now in a diesel car company, you need to have a profound understanding of what's happening in the outside world and how your business model of adapts to it, and just teaching people in a 20th century way about linear production systems and growth and consumption is not fit for purpose. You're actually leaving people who are going to fail as soon as they step into the business world, we need the business schools to step up.

Alberto Lidji: Putting aside the big corporates, the Unilevers, the Coca-Colas, what is it that the smaller... small, medium enterprises, entrepreneurial ventures, what is it that they could do?... what is it that they should do in order to drive things forward?

Mike Barry: This goes to the very heart of it because over the last decade. A number of companies have stepped forward to voluntarily to take the lead in this space. And again, you've mentioned some of them they're world class, and all of them will get progressively ever better. Brilliant, I'm really happy for them, they'll lead the disruption, they'll survive the great transformation of the economy. What concerns me most, are the millions of SMEs that populate the global economy who don't have a Mike or a team to sort of lead them on this journey of support . They're just sort of working to survive through the current pandemic.

And I look for two or three different things that are going drive these great massive companies. Firstly, Scope 3 which is very much about Unilever recognizing that its footprint is built up not of its own operations, its factories and lorries that owns. But happens in the homes of millions of consumers and tens of thousands of suppliers. And the ability not just to audit and set a standard for these suppliers saying jump this high, now jump this high, but to actually make them climate literate or sustainability literate is critical.

And I see more and more big businesses now starting to support and guide their supply chains on this critical journey. Not just individually, but through the shared platforms like the climate pledge I was mentioning. So that's driver number one.

Driver number two is obviously government legislation. You know, we've seen it in the UK, in Europe and South Korea, Japan, now Biden's administration, mandating change. So if you want to sit on the sidelines you can't because the law is against you. It's driving you to change, which is fantastic. We need more of that across the global economy.

And the third thing is technology. In the old days and, say, I went gray of hair at M&S trying to track and trace 3 billion individual items that M&S sold every year, flowers, shoes, ready meals, etc from thousands of locations, with a pen and paper and a spreadsheet... madness.

Now with artificial intelligence, with big data, we've got new tools to activate and support efficiently tens of thousands of companies to come on this journey. We need to see that potential of tech for good.

Alberto Lidji: Now the government policy you touched on a second ago, I'd love to get your take on where you see things both in the UK and internationally. The UK has obviously been doing a lot on the climate side. What's your take on government policy, industrial policy right now?

Mike Barry: Well, let me start close to home for me, which is the UK. And then we'll go into the global scale. On the surface, the UK has got tremendous amounts to be proud about. It's decarbonising its energy supply, as well as any nation around the world.

Great, but beneath the surface, there are some great challenges. And typically a lot of these national pronouncements, policy announcements, not just in the UK obviously, lack detailed action plans. And offshore wind, strange to say it, was actually relatively easy. In the UK, a small nation, we're now going to ask 66 million people to fundamentally shift how they move around the nation.

So 35 million cars in the UK need to be bought differently, charged differently going into the future. 29 million homes in the UK, 19 million of which a leaky, energy inefficient homes; they need new heating systems, new energy efficiency measures. That costs $20,000 or $30,000 to put into place for every home. That's a big ask.

Diet, again, we've got to encourage people to eat a lower impact diet in the future. Suddenly for policymakers, it becomes very much more complicated because we're into culture wars, we're having conversations with millions of people, not a few offshore wind developers. So policy needs to step up and understand the narrative to take society with us. And the Biden administration I think has done a great job in America, talking about jobs, opportunity, re-skilling and just transitioned to help steelworkers retrain to low-carbon industries as well. And that's critical on this.

But then I look at one other system that needs to change that no one's touched yet: the food system... 30% of global emissions. It touches everybody's life every day. It's political, it's complex, it's difficult. So decarbonising the food industry will require governments to step up yet again, in terms of the social narrative, the need for change and the human dimension of supporting people on it.

And at the moment, I don't see too many signals from around the world that governments recognise that. Or able to do it as well. So, you know, good first step of Everest so much more to do.

Alberto Lidji: Now, besides government, the other thing you touched on was technology. I'm always a huge fan of technology and what it can do to improve our world. I'm curious, where are things right now with respect to technology, it's carbon footprint, it's a social implications?

Mike Barry: So technology is really interesting because I think as a sector, 10 years ago, the big tech companies were growing very, very fast. The Apples, the Twitters, the Facebooks, the Amazons, the Googles etc.

And within reason they saw their corporate responsibility, their societal responsibilities as growth... creating economic growth, creating jobs... job done. Very clearly, they've got very significant footprint, environmental footprint, just starting to address the data centers, being run on renewables rather than dirty energy, it's progressively a good story. The social dimension of technology, barely touched upon. The spreading of dinformation, where taxes is paid, transparency, who holds data on who, who programs the artificial intelligence to make sure it's fair and represents for the society we live in. Not been thought about. So that's a great black hole for me in terms of the tech companies.

And then there's the third dimension of technology for good, tech for good, which says having invented all this stuff, it's not just about making sure it's not causing problems, but how do we apply it to actually solve the systemic challenges we've got. I talk very briefly about tracking and tracing 3 billion items at M&S from global supply chains. Other retails are 25 times bigger than M&S. Do the maths.

Hundreds of billions of items sold every year from tens of thousands of locations. So to track and to trace is the beginning, and remote sensing, artificial intelligence, big data sets is critical to doing that as well. But once we've done that, we need new materials. So again, I've done some work with Unilever taking a million tons a year out of oil out of its home care products.

Oil is used as a base product is so many different consumer products and replacing them with more stem alternatives. Again, they're having to invent a whole new category of raw material to do it.

The circular economy... again, if I see some positivity about the net zero economy, low carbon, I can see a pathway to scale, but a long way to get there.

The circular economy is just dotted with lots of tiny little subscale initiatives and award-winning stories, but there's not pathway to scale. We need new ways of linking new materials, that are more sustainable, new logistic systems that bring things back, new reuse systems that allow people to constantly refill and reuse contents, for example. But we're barely scratching the surface. So all across this landscape of technology for good, I see opportunities. But we are way off the pace of where we need to be.

Alberto Lidji: Now what actions need to happen in order to have those pathways to scale?

Mike Barry: So one part of it is very much about government policy. Once the government mandates that the economy has got to be net zero, typically by 2050, the signal goes into the marketplace that we need to do things radically different, investors can then have a confidence to back these startups, these new ideas about doing things differently. So I think that's number one.

Second, we need the tech giants, the Googles, the Amazons, the Apples, who've got a pretty good story to tell today, to accelerate that and to be an incubator for these new technologies and their ability to actually transform things.

The third thing we've got to do is we've got to create a framework in which these new technologies can be used in a trusted way. So look, what's happening with the food system, you know, we're going through a bit of a culture war at the moment about the shift from a meat based diet to a plant-based one. We've barely scratched the surface of the conversations that will come, which we shift beyond that to having indoor production of food.

So the startup in the states at the moment, Plant-Ag looking to raise USD $9 billion to bring a third of the us produce production in indoors. On the surface, good for the environment, less fertilizer, less water, less pesticides.... brilliant. Human rights abuses removed. It's just a man or a woman in a white top with a computer and in these indoor farms. But the social dimension, we remove hundreds of thousands of rural community jobs in America, potentially in doing that. So we need a framework in which we can introduce these technologies in a way that is trusted and don't take us from frying pan to fire. Solve one problem not by creating another one as well. If we do those three things, we can reap the benefits of technology for good.

Alberto Lidji: And the culture wars that you referred to a minute ago, and that's obviously highly consequential in terms of policy-making and election cycles...

Mike Barry: So culture wars are a really important dimension of this one. One that's going to become more important in the next decade. You know, we've seen the last five years, the rise of political populism in the west, the rise of Trump, Brexit in the UK, gilets jaunes movement in France, the sense that globalization has not worked for significant proportions of the people, the communities in these so-called developed economies.

I mean, we talk in terms of a pear-shaped recovery, the middle class are going to get richer. You know, they've been locked down for a year, still getting most of their incomes in many cases, nothing to spend it on. So they've just saved more. The poor have lost their jobs in a gig economy, no sort of income security whatsoever. They're going to get poorer. And that's the pandemic. And I'm really concerned that we're stepping into a new low carbon, net zero, circular, sustainable economy, and we're just going to perpetuate the sense of income inequality, and drive greater divide into society. And actually the necessary shift that should be helping all of society will be to blame for that. So, you know, I just think politicians, business leaders are a bit sleep at the wheel at the moment about the social dimension of sustainable change.

Alberto Lidji: Now let me touch a little bit on decarbonisation. If we're going to decarbonise really there are three pillars: we've got to have the electrification of current uses. We've got to have zero carbon emissions for the production of that electricity, and we've got to have energy efficiency. How are you seeing both the direction of travel and the urgency of travel? Are you feeling optimistic?

Mike Barry: So, Alberto, on some scale I am optimistic. I think on individual silos, of the decarbonisation journey, I can see a clear pathway to success. I think the UK has shown that with the shift to offshore wind, decarbonizing the electricity grid here. But on other really crucial parts of the decarbonisation journey, particularly when we involve citizens being asked to run their lives very differently. How to drive a car, how they consume food, how they heat the home, we've barely woken up to the scale of it.

So I'm very concerned that we're underestimating the challenge of taking people with us on these journeys. And then overlapping all of it is the sense of the climate crisis, even in the pandemic, when we shut down the whole global economy... emissions barely dropped and then rebounded very rapidly, even beyond where they were in 2019.

So the science is incredibly against us. I mean, the world's warmed by a little under 1.2, 1.3 degrees. We're nearly at that 1.5 tipping point. I'm really pessimistic about stopping at 1.5, I think we're heading for 2.5, 3 degrees of warming.

Now people might turn around and say so what Mike you know, 2, 2.5, 3 degrees of warming does that really matter?

When the world was on average, 6 degrees colder, that was the ice age, and where I'm stuck here in the UK was under a thousand meters of ice. That's 6 degrees on average colder. I don't want to mess around with three degrees on average warmer with 7 or 8 billion people around me in a global economy... we'll collapse. So I think we underestimate how much more needs to be done.... how quickly in terms of change.

Alberto Lidji: Now, Mike, tell us a little bit more about that 'taking people with us' and how do we achieve that. Ultimately, no matter what policies come around, no matter what technologies come around, if people don't change their behaviors, we're just not going to get to where we need to go. So how do we achieve that?

And I always remember this story about this plant-based burger, where you told me 2.5 years ago, Alberto, try out the plant-based burger side-by-side with a beef burger and you will be amazed. And there's one particular brand, which I've tried. And when presented with the option of going with that plant-based burger versus an average beef burger, I will go with a plant-based burger and that's a behavioral change of mine ,that I do willingly without being imposed upon. I do it because I actually prefer that option and it happens to align perfectly with what we need to do.

Mike Barry: So, Alberto, let's just unpick that very human individual story there. I think a lot of people now are exploring alternatives to meat, flexitarianism so rather than absolutely saying nothing in my diet, they're saying I'll try alternatives and quite enjoying them.

I like to reduce my meat consumption by 10% 20%, 30%. Now, that's in the context of a growing global population. And developing nations consuming more meat as they become richer. So any small servings in terms of meat consumption here in the west, as we experiment with these new diets, is being overtaken by what's happening on a wide scale. We need that context.

I think the second thing we need to remember is that these plant-based alternatives that have been developed, they might not necessarily be healthier. So I think there's a narrative that will emerge to say you can probably have an interesting, healthy meat-based diet, but it's produced in a dramatically different way from today's commoditised, mass production of meat, which is just awful for the planet, society and clearly animal welfare.

And then there's a third dimension to this shift in the food system we need to remember. Lurking in the background behind plant-based is laboratory grown, and I think people are underestimating how quick are we going to get to the point where laboratory grown meat is an option in terms of displacing bad commoditised, low cost, high volume meat with all its impacts.

I think there's a point in the mid, late 2020s where the tipping point comes and laboratory grown is cheaper than conventional meat. So it's better for the environment, better for the animal, safer and healthier. And it's cheaper. And at that point, the gradual change to the world food system, just like we've seen with the electricity system, just like we've the car system.

Now who controls those global food systems. Is it one bigglobal corporation that produces all the meat in secret behind closed doors... debate and discuss. What do we do with millions of farmers who are producing conventional meat and are suddenly being cast to one side, because they've got this new, better version, in theory, coming out of a laboratory.

And again, we're not exploring the theory of change for these consumption-based systems. We're underestimating how much of a backlash there might be, how we need to regulate differently as well to get the potential.

Alberto Lidji: Mike, when you say a burger that's manufactured in a lab, it doesn't get my juices flowing. I don't instinctively think okay, where's the ketchup bottle, let me take a bite of this burger. Do you see any challenges on the marketing front? How do we get to position something like that in a way that's palatable to the everyday consumer?

Mike Barry: But again, it's not difficult to solve because again, if you put on the front of your typical meat-based product, the grim reality of how it was produced, the animal misery, the environmental impacts, the human mystery, for lots of people that work for the supply chains no one would touch it with a barge pole.

So let's be clear that meat that's sold today is sold behind a facade. So all it needs is somebody who's a smart marketeer to put a smart front end on the laboratory-grown and it will fly because it will be cheaper and it would be cleaner. So as much as I sort of respect that as a problem, it will be solved. And you know, there's a backlash in Europe against genetically modified food... that remains to a degree. There is a deep suspicion of tinkering with food. The perception of people's minds. Didn't happen in most of the rest of the world.

So I can see as a fork in the road for the world food system: one is to a high volume indoor produced system, very much more sustainable, but with also some real downside that we to manage.

The other direction, a low volume, high value conventional food system. So livestock... the farmer has been on the land... his family for a hundred years, practicing regenerative agriculture, is locking carbon up in the soil, he's looking after his animals. You're getting a great tasting, authentic, transparent burger, but it's going to cost you more than the laboratory grown one. It might be low volume, but say it's high value. The bit in the middle, the commoditised awful meat production of today's the bit that disappears.

Alberto Lidji: So again, on the technology side, so with the lab grown burger in a few years' time, we'll likely be able to purchase that, just like we purchase any other type of food. What other exciting technological developments do you see coming down the pipeline for the next 3, 5, 10 years?

Mike Barry: So again, we've talked about technology for good. The ability to track and to trace billions of items around the planet and manage them better. I think that's going to really take off. Plastics... plastics has to change. It's been given 10, 20 years of repeated support to say plastics is important, it's good for society, it protects products, it's cheap and flexible to use, but it's ending up in the oceans in ever-growing quantities.

And actually the solution there is not ever more esoteric technology developments, you know, something that's meant to be biodegradable. It is just simplifying the plastics system. Minimizing its use, when we use a plastic it's the same polymer, it's collected in the same way, reused in the same way. So technology breakthroughs are not necessarily about putting a man or a woman on the moon. They're actually about simplifying processes and logistics of closing the loop as well.

We've talked about the food system, laboratory grown versus regenerative agriculture; mobility is well understood now in terms of the electric car, but I would say again... to challenge the electric car... it is still a metal box that's going to sit in a traffic jam in Los Angeles, just like in a diesel car, it might be producing less pollution. But it's still a traffic jam. And the trend point is a much more integrated approach to public transport, designing cities for people to live in and not have to commute hours across every day. So I don't think electric car of itself is the end point of a truly sustainable mobility system.

You know, aviation again, critical part of modern life. I think, you know, some people will increasingly reject it not wanting to fly. But many will for business and personal reasons. So sustainable jet fuel will become ever more important than this. I mentioned the Unilever story. Decarbonising the oil that's used as a raw material behind the scenes, invisible to people in consumer products. That's rich for innovation, the scale to do that as well.

And that behind the scenes are things that most people never see, how steel is produced, concrete is produced... radically decarbonising those pathways and the Race to Zero initiative and the run-up to COP26, is doing an awful lot to bring sectors together to accelerate and scale up the low carbon option behind the scenes.

And my final point, the true innovation for me, is systems thinking. We have to design the city of the future because we're going to be an evermore, urban society to work in an integrated way. The energy system, water system, education system, the health system, mobility system drawn together. So I actually think cities are a critical part of taking action on sustainability in the way that nation states are just too far or too distant from most people's lives.

Alberto Lidji: That's really interesting. The role of cities and driving forward, the SDG agenda. Tell us, so, in terms of the next 10 years, where do you see success for the next 10 years? How do you see success for you in the next 10 years?

Mike Barry: I'm going to say success for me in 2030 is 70% or 80% of global society bought into the need for change and actively participating in change.

So I'm not going to frame it as carbon emissions, but we need 50% less carbon emissions by 2030, the only way we're going to achieve those end points, the SDGs, is if society as a whole, not just the 10% to a proactively green and ahead of the curve, but we scale into the mainstream and make people want to be part of the journey, decarbonising the home, mobility, diet etc. Without that mass global engagement, we will fail miserably, whatever technical solutions we develop in the laboratory we need people with us.

Alberto Lidji: I love it, that mass global engagement and taking people with us so very, very important. Tell me what's that key takeaway you'd love for the audience to keep in mind after they finish listening to today's episode.

Mike Barry: Based on 20 years of experience at M&S and now working with multiple different clients across the global economy, there are three simple questions for any boardroom: Why do I need to become sustainable? What do I commit to doing to become sustainable? How do I integrate into my business?

Some businesses are good with what. They come up with lots of targets and numbers and systems and report, and three people in the business manage it, isolated from everybody else. A few businesses come up with a nice sort of strategy that in the boardroom, but it never lands on the shop floor and is never bought into by the consumer base, the shareholder base.

The businesses of the future are clear about the drivers for change. And strategically integrate it into their business model, their culture, their purpose. Secondly, they're absolutely clear about what goals they need to deliver. And I stress, the word deliver. I see lots of businesses come out with press releases saying yeah, 50% production decarbonisation, and then think by magic it will happen. They need to put in place a governance system in the business towards delivery.

And that third question, how do I integrate it into my business? It's all about emotional intelligence. I've got millions of consumers, tens of thousands of colleagues, tens of thousand suppliers, thousands of shareholders. I need a conversation with them to explain why I'm acting and the benefits of acting. This has to be about human buy-in to what we're doing. Not few technocrats, not few billionaires, not few politicians. Just that thinking that they can make decisions remote from people's lives as to what will, what will drive the change we need.

Alberto Lidji: Excellent. Mike, thanks so very much for joining us on The Do One Better Podcast. Great seeing you back on the show, let’s not let it be another 2.5 years until you’re back on with us. Here’s to continued success with all the work you’re doing, all the passion you’re bringing into the conversation, and I look forward to our next conversation very much. Thanks a lot, Mike.

Mike Barry: Alberto, it’s an absolute pleasure. Thank you.


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